WikiPortallus: Talk:Homeschooling.html

A new section called "financial obligations" has just been added. Since there is already a section called "cost to families" which actually has references, and since the "financial obligations" sections sounds suspiciously like original research, I think we ought to remove it. Does anybody object to that? Amillion (talk) 08:36, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

References in popular culture

Should there be a section for this? I can think of a few off the top of my head:

Germany section

I reverted the section on Germany as violating WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. Seanwal11111 put it back with the biased phrasing removed (thanks, good job). However, it still has problems:

Otherwise, the section without the POV verbage is good enough to keep, provided the problems above are addressed. -Amatulić (talk) 00:09, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Have added information on the recent origins of German law Snow555 (talk) 15:05, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Collaboration

Hey folks! I'm thinking the first thing I'm going to do is put a tag on everything that doesn't have an inline citation. It's worked in other collaborations I've been part of. We just start by citing everything and then move from that point into expanding the article. Usually as we cite what's already here, we'll start running into what isn't here yet. Wrad (talk) 23:56, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

International homeschooling

We need to get all of our bases covered on this. Can someone make a color-coded map of the world showing legality of homeschooling across the world, also another possibly showing # of homeschooled in different countries?

I like the four categories of the map: Legal, legal but contested, illegal but uncontested, illegal. Let's list according to that. Wrad (talk) 19:06, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Is there a source for homeschooling being legal in Greenland? As an article about Greenland states "education is free and compulsory for all children between the ages of 7 and 16". Note that Greenland is completely autonomous since 1979, only before that date it was a colony of European Denmark. Should we reform the European table into an international one? Or create extra tables for other continents? - Species8473 (talk) 17:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

With that the United States remains yellow as by 1 and Swistzerland orange by 2 - Species8473 (talk) 18:03, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Homeschooling in Europe

I have done some research on homeschooling in European countries, and created a table to hold all the information. It's quite big so I put it on a seperate page.

Current gaps: ~~Andorra~~, ~~Bosnia and Herzegovina~~, ~~Cyprus~~, ~~Czech Republic~~, ~~Georgia~~, ~~Latvia~~, ~~Liechtenstein~~, ~~Lithuania~~, ~~Luxembourg~~, ~~Macedonia~~, ~~Malta~~, Monaco, ~~San Marino~~, ~~Serbia~~, ~~Vatican City~~.

Everyone is encouraged to help with the gaps, feel free to take them out the list above when done. Extra sources and information for other countries are most welcome as well.

Alaska

Shouldn't it be yellow, since it's part of the US? Wrad (talk) 16:25, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Peer Review 2

Homeschoolers vs. homeschoolees

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Is a homeschooler the parent or the student? Is the other the homeschoolee? Z gin der 2008-04-29T21:11Z (UTC)

The homeschooler is the parent; the homeschoolee is the student. Hope that answers your question. - Diligent Terrier (and friends) 21:15, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm concerned this hasn't been made clear enough. Maybe there should be some kind of explanation towards the beginning of the article? - Diligent Terrier (and friends) 21:27, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Is this pre-existing terminology or was it made up for the sake of the article? Amillion (talk) 22:14, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

It is pre-existing terminology, but many homeschooling families avoid using the homeschoolee word, and use "homeschooler" for both the educator and student. - Diligent Terrier (and friends) 00:10, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

WHERE is it pre-existing terminology? I've never heard it, and the term "homeschoolee" only gets 95 Google hits, some of which are WP mirrors, and many others are scare-quoted as a neologism. I vote to remove the term from the article. Everyone I know refers to both parents and students as "homeschoolers", in part because they view homeschooling as a collaborative process, not something one person is doing to another. —Wahoofive (talk) 05:34, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Although many homeschoolees refer to themselves as "homeschoolers", the fact is that the correct grammar is "homeschoolee" for the student. Wikipedia does not go by "what it seems as though most people do". As for finding citations, homeschoolers are barely on the internet to begin with, and if we are going to go by what the dictionary says, this article might as well be deleted, as homeschooling is not even a completely recognized word ... Google just recently recognized it, but Oxford dictionary does not recognize "homeschooling", "homeschooler", or "homeschoolee", and the built in spell checker that I am using in Firefox says they are all wrong. Even among the homeschooling community, there is a disagreement over how "homeschooling" is spelled. Some spell it like the title of this article. Others spell it "home-schooling" and "home schooling". As the debate of the spelling of these words continues, the fact remains that "homeschooling" is perhaps the most recognized spelling for "education at home", while "homeschooler" is the educator, and "homeschoolee" is the student. So let's move on and not get in a big argument over these little things. Cheers! - Diligent Terrier (and friends) 22:27, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia also does not condone the creation of terminology for the sake of an article. The "correct" terminology is the terminology which is used by the majority of reputable sources which discuss the topic. If we found that homeschooled students are commonly referred to as homeschoolees, that term would be the correct one to use in the article. However, this does not appear to be true. It is also untrue that "homeschoolers are barely on the internet to begin with." There are a multitude of websites about homeschooling. Also, the fact that there is more than one way to write the word "homeschooling" does not make "homeschoolee" a legitimate term. Amillion (talk) 07:44, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I did a little research on local homeschooling support groups, and I found that with every local homeschooling support group website I have been to, they all hold their discussion in private forums or in email mailing lists, both of which Google does not index. The homeschooling websites that are public range from curriculum sales to tips on how to homeschool, both of which are resources for the homeschoolers - the educators. I don't want this to come off as disrupting Wikipedia to illustrate a point, but the "correct" terminology is not always the most frequently used. There have been cases where most people use incorrect grammar, but that doesn't make it correct. - Diligent Terrier (and friends) 20:48, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Show me a Wikipedia policy page that says it's correct to use a word that is not used by any reputable sources on the subject simply because one believes it to be a more "grammatical" conjugation.

Here's an example:

I personally don't think that using "chiropractic" as the name of the field is grammatically correct, and think that chiropractors should use "chiropractic medicine" or "chiropracy" or something to that effect. However, all reputable sources on that subject use the term "chiropractic." By your logic, I would be justified in changing the Wikipedia page to reflect my belief. It would not matter what term is actually used. Amillion (talk) 03:21, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, no, my judgment was the opposite - that many people may use the incorrect grammar, but that doesn't make it right. So, Wikipedia should go with the correct grammar regardless of what the majority of people say. - Diligent Terrier (and friends) 17:39, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

So we should change the chiropractic article to chiropracy or chiropractic medicine then? Even though the consensus in the field is that the correct term is "chiropractic?"

I think we need some kind of administrative dispute resolution process to resolve this. You are the only one who thinks that "homeschoolee" is the proper term, but you are obviously not going to change your mind. Perhaps we should ask for help from the mediation cabal (since the official dispute mediation page suggests that that be tried before formal mediation)? Amillion (talk) 19:42, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

The fact that just 0.02% of the population uses the term 'homeschoolee' as opposed to 'homeschooler' (REF: Googlebattle.com: 464,000 results for 'homeschooler' vs. 114 for 'homeschoolee') or that not one single reputable dictionary uses the term, or that not one profile on Spock.com is referenced as a 'homeschoolee' or that not one single website of a leading, respected homeschooling organization uses the term is irrelevant. Digital Terrier is the all knowing expert on all things grammer and the singular voice for all homeschoolers (whoops, "homeschoolees") and we just blindly accept the fact that everything he says on the issue must be true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ChristianLAX (talk • contribs) 17:11, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

First of all my name is not Digital Terrier. Second, please do not make personal attacks. Third, if you claim that you know grammar and I don't, then why did you just spell "grammar" wrong? I don't think we need administrator intervention on this. You need to stop bringing up your Google search results as the answer to this issue. I have already said that homeschoolers mainly interact through emails and private forums, which are not indexed by Google. The point is that just as it took a while for the homeschooling community to accept the correct spelling of homeschooling, it may take a while before they accept the correct grammar - homeschoolees. - Diligent Terrier (and friends) 20:40, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

And until that time, we ought to continue to use the word that is used.

I am going to remove the section you re-added. I propose that we keep it out of the article until such time as a decision is reached. Please do not re-add it. I think we really do need administrative intervention, because I think we have come to an impasse. Until we know what Wikipedia's policy is on the matter, no decision can be reached. Although ChristianLAX, Wahoofive, and I do not think one ought to create a term for the purpose of this article, you disagree and show no sign of changing your mind.

By the way, although ChristianLAX's comment was verging on a personal attack, s/he does have a point. The legitimacy of this term cannot be established, because it is used by no reputable sources. Amillion (talk) 21:52, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Possible compormise: I have alway heard students say they were homeschooled, and do not use the nouns homeschoolers or homeschoolees. Homeschoolers are the teachers only. Where do we need to explicitly refer to the students in the article anyway? Z gin der 2008-05-05T13:23Z (UTC)

OK, I've already given up with this (for now, at least), as you can see at the RFC section below, but I say we refer to them as "homeschooled students" (if necessary). - Diligent Terrier (and friends) 20:02, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I think that we should use either "homeschooled students" or "homeschooled individuals" depending on the context. Amillion (talk) 21:55, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

"Homeschooled students/individuals/people" is probably the least troublesome theoretically consistent solution, but the claims that homeschooler is technically incorrect and that homeschoolee is technically correct are worth reconsidering. Anyone interested may find the following helpful. If this post is technically and categorically excessive or breaks any other requirements you have my apologies and I hope someone deletes it appropriately.

English contains a limited number of action-undergoer words that end in -ee and that are fixed entries in the dictionary, such as employee. These words typically come from French, where -ee can be used as the equivalent of "someone who has been verbed." Distinct from this is the fact that in English we can also use -ee on just about any verb to produce an action-undergoer word, and the result will usually be readily comprehensible; but that does not make it a fixed, established word you will find in a good dictionary. The distinction I am informally describing as "fixed word" versus "produced word" is technically more often referred to with such terms as "lexicalized" versus "productive." Productive suffixes are free for use just about anywhere, while lexicalized words are learned and, by comparison, unpredictable. When a lexicalized word for a concept exists, its use is preferred over alternative, productive formations, though the latter are still comprehensible. For example, -ness can be added to any adjective to create a comprehensible quality noun, but if an alternative noun for the same concept already exists then that one is preferred (humility over humbleness, arrogance over arrogantness, and so on). Calling humbleness or arrogantness incorrect is only correct if you realize this: in and of themselves the words are perfectly understandable and regularly formed, and their only demerit is that other, less predictable, lexicalized words for the same concepts already exist and a principle of English grammar calls for us to prefer these.

Now, what's special about -ee is that its productive use is not fully integrated into English grammar. It is a suffix borrowed from French and generally recognizable in English, but not yet fully native. This may be one reason that it is also used inconsistently, if one considers attendee as inconsistent (logically meaning "one who gets attended" but used with the meaning "one who attends"). Inconsistent usage suggests that English users don't fully understand -ee the way they understand native productive suffixes like -ness. But if attendee becomes established as the standard for the majority of the population, then it will make its way into dictionaries and become a recognized, lexical, correct form despite being inconsistent. Language is notoriously inconsistent.

As an illustration of this point take another suffix, -ant. In French this is the active participle, an active counterpart of -ee (both have spelling variants we'll ignore here). It had a similar function in Latin. But while -ant is acceptable in many lexicalized English cases (borrowings from French and Latin), English speakers do not recognize it as productive. So attendant is a word because it is registered in the dictionary (lexicalized), but it is not a word you could produce on the spot without having ever heard it before and expect to be understood. There are grey areas here; I tried out a clearly incorrect sentence *I was enjoyant of that once (= I was enjoying it) and the person did in fact understand, but still clearly registered by her face that something wasn't right, meaning her grammar contained no rule for the productive use of -ant. Now the productive use of -ee has become fairly acceptable, unlike that of -ant, but it is still not standardized and fully integrated into English.

Homeschoolee is a productive formation, which makes it readily understandible and in principle acceptable; yet because it is produced with a suffix that has been borrowed from another language and not yet fully integrated into English, the word will still not strike most people as being completely and unremarkably consistent with native English word formation rules.

Separately, because homeschoolee is a productive formation rather than a lexicalized one, if a different term is already established as the standard, lexicalized word for the same idea, then that term should be preferred, not homeschoolee. The lexicalized term is preferable even when its history is irregular. "Incorrect" forms (forms that are inconsistent with some previously accepted rule or pattern) are often generated in language evolution, but once they become generally accepted and lexicalized, they become correct at a later stage. If you want to decide whether to say homeschoolee or something else, you need to look at the candidates for "something else" and see if any of them is the established, generally accepted terms used by the majority of modern English speakers today even in formal, educated, written styles. If you find such a term, and particularly if no official national grammar-policing institution has condemned it, you should use it. Continuing to insist on using homeschoolee is not "correct," particularly when you have cited no particular source other than your personal understanding of grammatical structure, which in this case really boils down to a rule you have assumed, that action-undergoer words ought to be formed with -ee, not -er.

In fact both parts of that conjectural grammar rule should be questioned. The use of -ee cannot be obligatory in English because the suffix is only a partially integrated loan. But also, the use of -er to express an action-undergoer is not necessarily incorrect. It depends on whether the source verb has a generalized intransitive use, where the undergoer of the action is also viewed as the person experiencing and thus in some sense doing the action. ("In some sense" covers a range of options here, with variables including the amount to which the person is affected, and the amount of volition and control they have.) That the verb homeschool has such an intransitive use is clear. That is, besides its transitive use with a direct object (We homeschool our children), it is used without an indirect object; here the subject can be the instructors, the instructors plus the students (typically a family unit), or just the students: As parents we decided not to send our kids to public school; we homeschool. - Our family homeschools. - We do homeschooling at our house. - Those kids don't go to public school; they do homeschooling.

The point is not whether one can license these sentences based on logic alone... one can rationalize all kinds of things no one ever says. The point is that the rationale has led in this case to a standard and accepted convention among users. (Language is conventional in this sense anyway; disagreements between prescriptivist English grammar teachers and the general populace really resolve into differences of opinion on which rules ought to be the accepted convention, not on intrinsically correct rules vs intrinsically irrational anarchy.) The intransitive use of the verb homeschool is what made it possible to describe those who do homeschooling as homeschoolers even in reference to the students. It is the fact that this latter use has caught on and become the accepted norm that makes it arguably legitimate.

While the debate about homeschoolee on this page thus does have a technically, linguistically correct answer (homeschoolee is comprehensible but not "the correct" form ousting other productive or lexicalized options), it should also be acknowledged that in situations where correct grammar is debated and no clear and comprehensible answer has won general agreement, it is always better to go with common usage (which homeschoolee is not). This is more practical for those who feel long linguistic discussions are low on their priority list especially in articles not primarily about linguistics anyway.

I hope this is helpful but please correct any errors. I consulted no sources here but if anyone wants bibliography on anything I could look for it at some point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.232.251.220 (talk) 00:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Having been in the homeschooling movement for more than 18 years and having written, edited, and submitted for publication hundreds of articles involving homeschooling and its related terms, my family and I would respectfully agree with the use of homeschooler for both teacher and student, since, as has been pointed out, homeschooling is seen by the participants as a collaborative effort. (After all, most homeschooling parents learn along with their students many things that their institutional education did not teach them; what is more, the student tends to do a certain amount of independent learning and/or research once s/he can read and, therefore, to share that knowledge after already having learned it with the "teacher" parent.) Over the years, when wanting to make a clear distinction that we are speaking about the homeschooling parent(s), we have used the term "home educator" to clearly distinguish the teaching/decision-making/textbook-gathering role of the parent, and "homeschooled student" or "homeschool student" for the child being taught. This has been in keeping with the general usage we have seen and what makes sense to the participants themselves. The term "homeschoolee" is quite foreign to the homeschooling movement, which has produced most of the literature on this topic over the past 25 years or so. Cajd (talk) 21:17, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I would like to second this statement. I was homeschooled for 12 years before graduating in 1998 (I've since completed my BS, MS, and most of my PhD). My younger siblings were likewise homeschooled up through their high school graduation. My parents have been teachers and coordinators in homeschool co-op settings, so my association with homeschooling extends back roughly 22 years. I have not once heard the term "homeschoolee" until reading this article today. My fellow homeschool students and I all referred to ourselves and our families as homeschoolers. I agree that there is some impetus to apply correct grammar, but I think it inadvisable to invent terminology that is entirely foreign to the movement solely for reason that it is grammatically more accurate. Words such as "email" are now accepted as correct grammar (and included in dictionaries) because they are used extensively. Likewise the generic use of the male gendered pronouns (he/him/his) was (and still is according to some standards) grammatically correct. Common usage of more explicitly gender-neutral language has forced redefinitions of grammatical standards. Likewise, I think an encyclopedia is meant to reflect reality rather than mold it. As such, the terminology in the article should reflect what is commonly used, rather than attempt to apply a new standard and change what is already present. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.146.61.64 (talk) 19:19, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Resolved. I think it's pretty much been agreed upon here that we can refer to students as "homeschooled students" until there is enough sources to back up the fact the "homeschoolee" is the correct term for the student. - Diligent Terrier (and friends) 19:26, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Cleanup

I've done quite a bit of work cleaning this article up and re-writing a few sections. Any thoughts on the changes I've made? - Diligent Terrier (and friends) 22:29, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Educational games

The paragraph about educational games in the "methodology" section seems to be condoning a particular point of view, and it also seems out of place/irrelevant. This paragraph reads:

Recently, the parents of both home schooled children and compulsory education schools are using educational games to make learning fun. Educational games cross the barrier between both types of schooling. They are intended to give children a positive attitude towards learning, and self-motivation. In response to the popularity of educational computer games, a wide variety of subjects are now covered in these games. Free online schools including colleges have made home schooling an easier transition from compulsory education, because the computer teaches the child instead of a parent or teacher, allowing the parent time to work their job. Free job training can also be learned online for those who can't afford college tuition, or who live far from schools. Amillion (talk) 08:17, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

The use of the term "homeschoolee" rfc

Is "homeschoolee" the only grammatically correct term for homeschooled students, and should it therefore be used regardless of whether or not it is used by outside sources, or is the term inappropriate for a Wikipedia article because it is not used by reputable sources? (In other words, should the extent to which a term is used by credible sources determine whether or not it is used on Wikipedia?)

"The following editors" tag

The tag on this page that says "The following user(s) are actively contributing to this article and may be able to help with questions about verification and sources," although it explicitly states otherwise, does actually imply article ownership. Questions about verification and sources should be placed on the talk page where any editor can respond. I think that this tag should be removed. Amillion (talk) 22:48, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Homeschool Legality World Map

The map I'm commenting on: homeschool legality world I think some of the information on it isn't correct. Starting with the Netherlands, where I happen to live. Homeschooling is not completely illegal in the Netherlands, it just has very high requirments, is opposed by political parties, and we virtually have none. Belgium has a similar situation, home schooling is allowed, but only if the parents prove able. And although the number of homeschooled children is higher, it's still a very tiny percentage. Sweden I believe should be yellow, virtually no homeschooled children and opposed by major political parties. I think a good improvement for the map would be to change orange into meaning legal under restricted conditions. And with that I would think about anything that goes further then registration. Another improvement for the map would be if it gives an indication on the percentage of home schoolers. Countries like Poland, Ireland, Czech, and earlier mentioned virtually have none. - Species8473 (talk) 12:32, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Major flaws in Rudner study

Any comments on these points before I add them to the "criticism of supportive achievements studies" section? - Species8473 (talk) 16:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Lack of sources in Methodology section

Wikipedia requires content to be verifiable. Especially the methodology section seems to need work there. Under educational games fact templates have already been added. But all-in-one curricula, student-paced learning and community resources completely lack any sources. I trust this information wasn't made up, but things like "homeschooles often take advantage of.." and "groups of homeschooling families often.." should be backed up by sources and/or statistics.

I have checked on the history of the community resources section, and it appears to date back to March 2005. With an extra paragraph added at July 2007. Lucky enough Wahoofive is still among us so perhaps he has some sources.

Famous Homeschoolers

Maybe we should discuss this? Do we want such a list in the article? Or prefer a section where it is also mentioned why they are notable? And who is to be in the list/section, who not? I personally have issues with Abraham Lincoln, Sandra Day O'Conner and Winston Churchill being in the list. The source used seems to list people as soon as they read a book at home once in combination with being famous. For example Sandra Day O'Conner in the list, she "attended the Radford School, a private academy for girls, from kindergarten through high school." 1 Even Albert Einstein made it to that 2 list, and he clearly was never homeschooled 3. Species8473 (talk) 21:26, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I removed the references needed tag. There is a reference to the full list, which is from a noted homeschooling cite. It is sufficient, but could be improved. To the people who keep placing various tags throughout the article, PLEASE start adding more citations instead of cluttering the article with tags. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ManBuiltPrice (talk • contribs) 15:46, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Most of the names are linked to other Wiki articles that mention that the person had some homeschooling; the citation that is used comes from a source that is generally reputable, as far as I can tell (no evidence has been presented to the contrary). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Snow555 (talk • contribs) 03:16, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm challenging the Rosa Parks list entry, as I have been reading through a lot of internet biographies now, but have not found one of them stating she was homeschooled or anything along those lines. While a short biography about her states that she did go to a school. It does add to that the situation in the school was bad because of racism, but this alone indicates she went to a school. Another internet biography about her states: "When she completed her education in Pine Level at age eleven, her mother, Leona, enrolled her in Montgomery Industrial School for Girls".

I have also removed sources that provide merely a list of names. They are poor as reliable source and on verifiability, and not interesting for those looking them up for extra information on what kind of homeschooling the person received. I did not remove the "So - Why Do You Homeschool?" book as source, because this one does provide a limited amount of extra information.Species8473 (talk) 14:16, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

About Rosa Parks, see [18]. Species8473, I don't appreciate it that several people go and find references and then you delete them because you have subjective opinions about their valididty. Unless you can show that the source is not clearly wrong, the source should stand on its own merit; let the reader decide.HomePolice (talk) 21:04, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Proposal

Proposal for section about notable homeschooled people. With as goal to provide useful factual information. I have kept the discussion over deletion of homeschooled individuals in mind while creating it:

Example: Thomas Alva Edison, an American inventor and businessman, was taught reading, writing and arithmetic by his mother. Before that he left school for only three month, where he had trouble following the lessons. M

Talk:Homeschooling.html

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