WikiPortallus: Talk:One Thousand and One Nights.html

What about the English translation of the first French translation that was used for so long? I've been reading it, and I notice that at least one risque passage (and presumably more) has been left out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.163.0.44 (talk) 21:17, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Titles

Do we really need every single language's version of the title of the 1001 Nights? Like Bulgarian? Can we delete all except for Arabic since the oldest existing book of stories was in Arabic?stan goldsmith 19:31, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Versions

If you want to be faithful to the history of the Nights there should be different pages for each different version with what we know about them on the pages. IE Burton's translation should have its own page, as should Haddawy's, etc. I rewrote most of this page to reflect certain academic truths about the Nights: 1. There are too many versions for it to be "one" piece of literature and 2. There is absolutely no historical basis to say that the stories all come from one place. The part of this page discussing literature and film seems like it should be taken out or made different pages and is badly written but I kept it in because it all seems verifiable. stan goldsmith 18:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I contend that the claim of the Haddawy version being "the best" is unprovable and therefore should be removed from this page. It's a shame that these obvious Peacock words were ever used on the public page here; I've run across them on past visits and thought that someone would have removed them by now. Rather than edit directly, I thought it politest to point out the error here in the discussion page: In Versions, "... [specific version described] by Husain Haddawy, by and large the best English language version to date." Thanks in advance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lagasek (talk • contribs) 22:48, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Origins

What cracks me up the most about this retarded debate about Persian vs. Arabic is that most of the stories that people are familiar with have European origins. Galland, Burton and others freely made up stories and shoved them into the collection at will. So your Persian/Arabic connection is really English, French and German mainly, with a few Persian and Arabic names and words tossed in for good "Oriental" mystique, which European readers loved during the 17th-18th centuries. The 9th century manuscript has only a few stories and the oldest Arabic version has only about 100 stories. The Persian collection called "Hazar Af Saneh" has never been found, though it was mentioned in the Fihrist of Al-Nadim, but only so much as the names of the 2 main characters. So before anyone goes crazy about whether it's Persian or whatever, do your research, go to the library, read books about the history of the 1001 Nights, anything, and unfortunately you'll see that most of the stories in there come from Europe. You will never find a first edition of the Nights because one does not exist. That is why they are so cool. stan goldsmith 18:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Dawood?

No mention of Dawood's English version? It's only relevant to English I guess, but this is the English wiki :)

Intro and Timeline

Why was my intro and timeline deleted? It was the most encyclopedic version of the collection? Especially the timeline. WTF??? Wikipedia just lost my contributions. I'm tired of putting in so much work just to have it deleted for no apparent reason. The 1001 Nights is the topic of my PHD diss, so I think I have some experience with researching it. You know what? Don't put them back up, they are now private content and I'm going to put the info on my own website. You guys can keep this shabby 4th grade version of something. stan goldsmith 21:11, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

stan goldsmith 18:24, 26 February 2007 (UTC) Wikipedia doesn't allow insertion of original research (WP:NOR). - Marmoulak 22:44, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

older comments

My memory has misled me. The Book of Esther does not say that the king would execute a bride per day. I don't know why I thought so, but I just reread the story (at [1]) and I was wrong.

Even if 1000 represents infinity, 1000 + 1 would not be a transfinite number larger than infinity. Although I suppose if "1000 + 1" is taken to mean "The first number after infinity", then it does represent a transfinite number.

My Burton edition claims that Aladdin is actually from a book called "The Blue Fairy Book", and is included with the rest of the tales just because it is so good. But I don't know anything further - anyone else up on this? Graft 23:39, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

"Shahrastini"

'...better-known in English as "Scheherazade" or "Shahrastini"' (italics mine). Really? I've never heard "Shahrastini" in my life. Unless someone can vouch for a well-known edition that uses this variant, this should be removed. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:42, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

easy reading but not bowdlerized

does there exist a version of English translation such that it is not censored in anyway but with more moden easy-reading style than Sir Burtons? Xah Lee 22:32, 2004 Dec 19 (UTC)

Violence Against women?

Err, Reading the book now, the amount of violence against women is incredible. One of the first stories, about a man who if he tells his wife the story will die, is resolved when the man decides to beat his wife with a Stick untill she stops nagging him, or dies. She stops nagging him, and they live happily ever after... WTF!!! --195.7.55.146 15:19, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You seem to be implying that the book is sexist or misogynist in some way - this is absurd in a book in which women outwit men throughout. Sdrawkcab 17:10, 9 May 2005 (UTC)sdrawkcab

Iran/Persia

In the historical context of this article, is it really appropriate to link "Persia" to Iran? -- Jmabel | Talk 06:41, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC)

There has been no significant change to the status of the country or its status of being an empire

The Book of One Thousand and One Nights

The Book of One Thousand and One Nights is an Arabic Literature master piece, which combined Folk Stories from many countries, including persia. It should not be confused with the persian "Hazar Afsanah" (A Thousand Legends), which is apart from the frame-story of Shahrazad totally different!!

Shahrzad

I may be completely wrong, but I don't think it is correct to say that Shahrzad means "born in the city". Considering the alternate ways of pronouncing the word "Shahrazad" or "Scheherazade" it seems that the word is a simplified version of Shahr+Azad or Shahr+Azade, which would mean the libertarian, or liberator (Azade) of the city. Also, "Shahr" in older persian usually means country, or the whole nation, not simply "the city". I think this meaning would also be much more consistent with the role her character has in the story. I'm looking forward to read your opinions about this. (anon 19 July 2005)

1001 nights has Persian roots

The name of the storyteller is Shahrzad which is a pure Persian name. I have heard from some Professors of Persian literature that 1001 nights originates from 1000 Afsane (1000 Legends). It is also noteworthy that the name of the city which many of the stories take place in (Baghdad) is Persian. (anon 8 Aug 2005)

It helps to check Wikipedia itself as to the origins of Baghdad. You will see that there is no "stretching it" and the origins of it is Persian. (Babak October 11, 2005)

"Medieval"

The article states that the stories are "a piece of medieval Middle-Eastern literature". But then it says that they were compiled in the 9th century. So which is it? Jonatan 20:15, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Abbasid or Arab

Which should it be? the Abbasid Caliph Harun al-Rashid or the Arab Caliph Harun al-Rashid? Philip Stevens 12:41, 22 October 2005. How about both? Yuber^(talk) 12:59, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Prince of Persia?

Why is the Prince of Persia linked here, does it have anything to do with the Nights? Philip Stevens 15:28, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

It is Persian

The story is completely Persian because of the names and also it was the Arabic version of 1000 myths or Hezar Afsaneh which was completely Persian. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.43.81.122 (talk • contribs) 15 Jan 2006. Yes I also believe that this is Persian and Arabs want to be unfair to us. Iranians have to prove their identity to the world. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Maziar fayaz (talk • contribs) 20 Jan 2006.

Indian Roots

I just listened to this podcast about the Abbasid Caliphs (MP3), where they claim the origin of the stories is actually India. It is claimed that the stories travelled from India to Persia. 20:40 in the podcast. Jaco plane 20:44, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

According to most scholars, many if not most of the stories in the Nights have origins in ancient Indian story collections such as the Panchatantra and the Jataka. The others are of Persian and Arabic origin. Overall, I see it as an Persian-Indian-Arabic work. The basic framework, however, is Persian. Afghan Historian 20:22, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Possible Plagiarism: `1001 Nights` is A Mere Translation of the Persian Masterpiece `1000 Myths`

How unfortunate that a story that begins with, “This is a story about a Persian (Iranian) King who lived during the Persian Sassanid dynasty...... ”, and a story whose main characters at the nucleus of the story are ALL Persian, with pure--original Persian names like Shahrzad, is being represented to the world as `Arabian Nights`. It is very much possible that `the Voyages of Sinbad the Sailor` chapters in the book were inspired by some Indian-Chinese mirabilia; however, there is nothing wrong with that, such that the Persian author who penned this masterpiece was simply inspired by them. Wasn’t Shakespeare inspired by some old Jewish, European, and even Oriental folktales? That is what authors do; they get inspired, and then they use their imagination. Yet, what is important to realize is that the written [proof] indicates where the story is from, and it is useless to try and go beyond the physical evidence, i.e. the facts. And, all the evidence proves this was an Old Persian folktale. Nevertheless, 1000 years ago there were no plagiarism, or copyright laws, because if there were, this Persian body of work would have rightly been called, `The Persian Nights`. About Baghdad: Baghdad is where Babylon used to be, and back then it was a province of the Persian Achaemenid Dynasty, and Ctesiphon in Babylon was the capital of two enormous Persian Empires; namely the Parthian and the Sassanids. Later-on, Arabs move in the area, when the Persian `Sassanid Dynasty` fail. The city Baghdad was designed and built by a Persian Jew--Mushallah, and the name is Persian, meaning, Bagh=garden, and dad or daad=gave. It is mind boggling that over 90 percent of Islamic scientists, tales like 1001 Nights, even architectural designs, poetry, paintings, you name it, were the contribution of Persian poets, scientists etc., yet Arabs take credit for it. Zmmz 04:43, 22 February 2006 (UTC) -- "back then" that area was a province of Babylon. Babylon is not Persian. Later Persians moved to the area from the east. It is not suprising to see some "persians" again trying to "own" everything middle-eastern. -Ur

Verifications?

Can anyone verify whether this actually happens? (Or does happen in some well-known erroneous version?) This was one of Borges's fictional works, so it's hard to say whether he's making up his references. Also, how many stories are there? It isn't exactly 1001, as I understand. How many is it? Or are the interconnections too vague to make an exact count possible? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 136.142.21.64 (talk • contribs) 12 Feb 2006.

Inline citations

Some of the facts in the article, while plausible, are a little surprising. Would inline citations be practical in this article? Andjam 12:44, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

One of my first encounters with the book was ascribed to Edgar Allen Poe, yet I see nothing here about him, but I had been under the impression that he had had a hand in at least some western versions of the myths. I have encountered much confusion (including my own) as to the origins of the story---Dragonwlkr 13:31, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Only Translations Available?

I admit I haven't looked as extensively as I should have, but offhand I don't see links to anything that's not a translation. (I am making an assumption that there is an original language for this, in Arabic...or Persian...or something that's not written in the letters I'm typing at the moment. I've seen one site that has a picture of two pages in Arabic script, but that appears to be it.) Given I'm studying Arabic, I would love to find a site that has the stories in the original language (if one exists). And for those who dislike translations as a rule, it would be nice to have easy access to a good untranslated copy. Anyone know where one might exist? Kilyle 22:40, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Arabic WikiSource

What is a "literary epic" ?)

No, I'm afraid you're wrong. The correct question was "What is a collection of tales within a framing device." What was your wager? --Wetman 07:24, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

What is the Indian name?

Calender

What is a "Calender" ? I have a (grossly overabridged) version that contains several stories about Three "Calenders" - each blind in one eye who were sons of kings. Unfortunately, the modern Wikipedia entry under calender is about a machine involved in the paper industry...

Improving the Article

I think something more should be said about the textual and editorial history of the Nights. For instance, it's my understanding that most modern translations are based on one of five 19th-century editions, refered to by their place of publication: Calcutta I), Bulaq / Cairo I (1835), Calcutta II), Breslau) and Bulaq II. The Burton translation is a free rendering of Calcutta II, and I think Mardras translated Bulaq I. Maybe a seperate section should be added to the article dealing with this kind of information, as well as a list of various translations. Kmbush40 07:14, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Burton's translation and the rare book market

Good article. How much would Burton's edition be worth on the rare book market? In 1998 a Lebanese friend of mine, and a lover of rare books, found the complerte set of Burton's rtanslation for sale in Baghdad in the Bookseller's Market (Mutannabi Street), for $200. It had a bookplate from the British Council - in fact the entire library was for sale there on the footpath. PiCo 02:40, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Alasnam

There is an orphan article Alasnam that looks like it should be linked to from this article. I do not have the knowledge of this subject to included it, can someone here do it? Jeepday 14:18, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Odd inclusion

Why is there a mention of a musical piece called La Noche de las Noches? The title (which means "the night of nights") doesn't suggest any obvious connection. - Jmabel | Talk 02:45, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

This book is Persian

This book is Persian. For any Arab who doesn't understand, just read it once and you'll see that the core history is in Sassanid Persian Empire. The stories were collected by Persians and written in a single book. Of course, after all those uncivilized Arabs burning Persian and Egyptian book (in the Alexandria Library for example) that many original versions of books will be lost. --Arad 23:15, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Can u give an evidence about " Of course, after all those uncivilized Arabs burning Persian and Egyptian book (in the Alexandria Library for example) that many original versions of books will be lost. " It is well-known when Alexandria Library destroyed!!!!!!. Also you should know that old Persian is different than Middle Persian and modern Persian, and around 30% of the Persian language vocabularies were brought from Arabic. Educate your self then write. And stop being racist. Aziz1005 20:34, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Arabic or Persian?

Now I assume that there is a strong Iranian presence here, and that's why people are changing the article to make it say this book is Persian. This is the only explanation I can think of, there being no factual evidence offered. To those people I say: please stop spreading mis-information. If you have a good argument, then present it here on the talk page, else don't change the page to reflect your own prejudices. As far as the actual 'case' goes, all we can say is that the book is a collection of stories, and this collection has grown over several centuries. It is a tenable position that some of the oldest come from Persia, India, or other places, but there is little evidence to support this thesis. In fact, some of the more typically 'foreign' names in the book may have been invented by Arab bards just for that purpose: to sound foreign and imposing. IMHO, once the first stories were written in arabic, they formed a snowball effect, and the book continued to change until it has acquired its most recent form, sometime in the 18th or 19th century after the invention of printing came to the Arab World. As such, the core and the meat of the book is defintely Arab, even if we accept the idea that it's 'nucleus' is not. Now let me add that this isn't a matter of national pride, it is a matter of historical accuracy. As such, one also must recognize that the book's fame comes from its reputation in non-arab countries (especially the west) much more so than it's reputation in the Arab World. This is also the case with the 'Rubaiiyat of Omar Khayyam' and to a lesser extent with the Chinese "Journey to the West'. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 90.153.128.12 (talk) 01:48, 27 January 2007 (UTC). Note: This article is literally littered with the word 'Persian'. Will you stop that?

I found in some website that the original version of 1000 nights and night is in (The oriental institution)not sure about the translation, in Chicago University and it is in Arabic from the 9th century this is the article in Arabic if u can read the source because I am not good at translating or writing in English قطعة قديمة جدا تعتبر الأقدم في العالم حتى اليوم، موجودة في المعهد الشرقي بجامعة شيكاغو ترقى الى القرن الثالث للهجرة، راجع (كوركيس عواد : المخطوطات العربية في الدور الأمريكية ص 34 الرقم3) وللدكتورة نبيهة عبود دراسة مفصلة عن هذه القطعة بعنوان:Abbott(Nabia) A Ninth Century Fragment of (Thousand and one Nights), Journal Eastern Studies , Vol, VIII, 1949, PP 129-164. And remember, I agree with u that there is some Persian influence but this does not mean the tale is completely Persian.....There are a lot of stories from Arabic heritage; Basra, Baghdad and Damascus were mentioned in the stories. I have written there it is an Arab-Indo-Persian tale and u deleted that and wrote Persian only.....Why? Aziz1005 22:27, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

The Synopsis repeats the Intro. Merge?

The first section and the Synopsis are almost identical. They both relate the set-up for the stories as well as mentioning the most common characters and well-known tales. Could they be merged? Ninquerinquar 22:20, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Hazār Afsāneh

The book "1001 Nights" is based on an older, Pahlavi-Persian work known as "Hazār Afsāneh" ("1000 Myths"), a collection of ancient Iranian and Indian folk tales. The work was mentioned by al-Tabari and others, yet, for some reason it is not mentioned in this articles. Someone should add a paragraph or two about this work into the article, since the frame story of the modern "1001 Nights" is certainly copied from "Hazār Afsāneh". Other stories, mostly of Egyptian and Syrian origin, were added later. While "1001 Nights" was written in Arabic, it is important to mention that the origins of the work are Non-Arabic, and go back to ancient Persia and India, as well as to ancient Egypt and ancient China. --82.83.135.55 11:50, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Arabian Nights.jpg

Image:Arabian Nights.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use. Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 19:45, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Spelling of Scheherazade

In my opinion, and according to my reading of Wikipedia's naming conventions, the encyclopedia should use the most common spelling in English, which is overwhelmingly "Scheherazade". There is a poll about this at Talk:Shahrazad#Requested move. –Taranah 17:04, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

About the Shahrazad cartoon's music

Hi, I wondered whether anyone knows about the cartoon's music that played in the beginning in the cartoon. I would be grateful if anybody writes its song's name or its composer. Thank-you. Happy editing, --Bahar (Spring in Turkish) ✍ 09:42, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The Book of One Thousand and One Nights → One Thousand and One Nights — Allow the Nights go by many names, in English 'One Thousand and One Nights' is one of the best known and the most faithful to the original Arabic name ('A Thousand Nights and a Night'). Also, to call the Nights a book is misleading as they were not written down for many centuries. —Philip Stevens 16:09, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

Strong Oppose - This book is much better known in English by its current name. Reginmund 01:35, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Support per nomination. — AjaxSmack 05:09, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Support Not only is it not better known without "The Book of", the current name does not even appear to be the exact title of any English translation. Is Reginmund thinking of Burton's "Book of the thousand nights and a night"? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:34, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
No, he isn't. Reginmund 00:50, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Support, per PMAnderson. Hera1187 06:24, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Comment, can you cite this assertion? --Philip Stevens 07:03, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Compare the internal links. Reginmund 14:19, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

The number of internal links on Wikipedia is not a good indicator of which name is the best known in English as most editors try to avoid redirects. A Google search shows that there are five times as many results for "One Thousand and One Nights" as for "The Book of One Thousand and One Nights". --Philip Stevens 14:39, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

That is because the ommissions of the appendage will include the titles with "The Book of One Thousand and One Nights" and others that don't. That's less of a good indicator. Reginmund 06:53, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

That's a good point, however I subtracted the result of the second and first search and "One Thousand and One Nights" had five times as many hit as "The Book of One Thousand and One Nights". --Philip Stevens 07:33, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe you. Google gives me 1,170 for One Thousand and One Nights[4] and 12,200 for "the Book of One Thousand and One Nights"[5]. Reginmund 00:53, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't advocate using Google to decide these things but, if you choose to do so, you need to refine the search better. Your searches above were for One Thousand and One Nights -the -Book -of and "The Book of One Thousand and One Nights" but, without quotes around "the Book of," all instances of pages with any of those individual words anywhere in the text would have been eliminated. (E.g., A site with the sentence, "One Thousand and One Nights" is a book of great renown," would be eliminated because "book" and "of" appeared.) Also, excluding Wikipedia and mirrors from the results is a good idea. Try "One Thousand and One Nights" -"The Book of" -Wikipedia versus "The Book of One Thousand and One Nights" -Wikipedia instead and you get very different results (54,600 vs. 4,530). — AjaxSmack 03:06, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
That search is even more ambiguous. If you skim the search 9/10 are completely irrelevant to the Arabian Nights. Most of the hits are about manga and artwork. Reginmund 16:17, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

What this change seems to ignore is that "Kitab" is the Arabicv word for "Book". Eclecticology (talk) 19:53, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page.

1001 Nights

I want to know who says most of the stories are arabic!? yes, There are some Indian stories and A FEW Arabic stories. I want to answer the people who says It`s an Arabic story. Why do all the main characters of the Arabic stories have Iranian names(whithout any changes)? It`s very strange that names of the main characters of local stories be foreign. We know in many years ago each name that entered in Arabic language had been changed alot. For instance, Khosrow (Persia=خسرو) became Kasra (Arabic=کسری), Pirooz (Persian=پیروز) became Firooz (Arabic=فیروز) , Kwaz (Persian=کواذ) became Ghobad (Arabic=قباد) and too many other names.Sandbad(means A wind that comes from Sand river), Shahrzad, Shahryar and etc. But there are many names like Sandbad, Shahryar, Shahrzad are existed in Arabic (without any changes). 1001 Nights story spreaded in Arabic countries, because of its popularity and its names became common without being Arabicized. If you want to know about the oldest version of 1001 Nights story, apparently you can not find it in Persian, since Arabs burnt any books that were written in Persian to destroy Iranian culture and language in Ummayad dynasty, According to Biruni's From The Remaining Signs of Past Centuries, Because of this nowadays there are lots of Arabic word in Persian, But Arabic words do not contain 30% of Persian language. That`s one of reasons why there are many ethnic problems between Iranians and Arabs. About Hezar Afsaneh and its relation with 1001 Nights has been discussed in this page and there is no need to talk about it anymore. 1001 Nights has range stories not only from Hezar Afsaneh and Iranian stories but also from Indian stories and A FEW Arabic stories. Why did most of stories of 1001 Nights occure in Iraq and Baghdad(nowaday)? It has a lot of reasons: 1

Talk:One Thousand and One Nights.html

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